08 18 18

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerosity_adaptation_effect

https://fleursdumal.org/poem/099

http://vbn.aau.dk/en/persons/henrik-joeker-bjerre(b7d8d2a5-880f-4bd1-8285-30988f5e091c)/publications.html?filter=research

zizek1

https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/08/17/brainwave-study-suggests-sexual-posing-but-not-bare-skin-leads-to-automatic-objectification/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41917733

Before The Internet

https://terenceblake.wordpress.com/2017/01/22/against-the-pathos-of-the-cold-equations-the-ideology-of-mathematical-reductionism/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia_(novel)

Chris Knight, Michael Studdert-Kennedy, James Hurford - The Evolutionary Emergence of Language: Social Function and the Origins of Linguistic Form

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:42]
but yeah when you extend calculus to higher dimensions the idea is more like making the most efficient program to describe a space

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:42]
[In reply to Noel Memearchivingbot]
yea

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:45]
poetry does make use of ambiguity and the drift of the signifier

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:45]
valid mathematics is about rigid designators as kripke called them

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:45]
but the two branches meet at the root of "language"

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:45]
mathematics is a synthetic language that is a subset of natural language

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:45]
rather than vice versa

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:45]
this is why logical postivism failed

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:46]
because the essential paradox is that you can only describe language with language

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:46]
that there is no external transcendent viewpoint

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:47]
when mathematicians talk about a proof being "poetic" metaphorically, they mean that it's efficient

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:48]
i haven't studied enough proof theory, but there is no way in general to decide if a proof is the most efficient, so there is some ambiguity there

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:48]
also you can have two logically independent proofs of equal efficiency

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:49]
which again there is no "higher viewpoint" for, because of the limitations on logic talking about itself

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 14:51]
can you guys use math to express how you are feeling right now

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 14:51]
actually

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 14:52]
I think I have a way to put this all together

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 14:52]
math describes the hardware of existence

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 14:52]
poetry the software

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 14:53]
even if the hardware is ultra complex and possibly multi dimensional, its still just hardware

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:54]
not a terrible analogy but it will break if you push it too far

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:55]
[In reply to cosmic prankster]
doctors use that 1-10 scale for pain and depression

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:55]
but it's mostly bullshit

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:55]
[In reply to cosmic prankster]
yeah the term for this is just "cybernetics"

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 14:55]
If you dont think math is a language i suggest revising your definition of language.

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:55]
or "dynamical systems theory"

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:56]
math is a synthetic language but it's not a natural language because there is no personal pronoun "I"

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:56]
it's more like the speech of god or the universe commenting on itself

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:56]
rather than an individuated consciousness

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 14:56]
[In reply to wqe23]
False. Math is self referential

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:57]
yes but it's the self-reference of the void or empty set

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:57]
it doesn't refer to an empirical consciousness

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 14:57]
[In reply to wqe23]
A distinction between what? Were the same.

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:57]
badiou uses the phrase "mathematics is the psychosis of being no subject"

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:58]
yes, on the transcendental level of the categories of conscious subjectivity, to phrase it in kantian terms, we are all the same

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 14:58]
[In reply to wqe23]
but what about the color of the feeling

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:58]
lacan calls that master signifier or S1

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 14:58]
when you hear a song and feel turquoise

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:58]
but the empirical content that fills in one subject versus the next is not universal

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:58]
it's particular

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:59]
this is getting into hegel's science of logic which i don't quite understand yet

wqe23, [18.08.18 14:59]
and is an extension of kant

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:01]
[In reply to cosmic prankster]
idk this is too metaphorical

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:01]
i dont see how emotions can objectively have a color

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:02]
right

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:02]
its beyond that

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:02]
you cant objectively understand it because its outside of the number matrix

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:03]
math can express the quantity of a quality but not the quality of a quality

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:03]
the subjective

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:03]
false

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:04]
since the turn of the 20th century math ceased to be about numbers

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:04]
aristotle made arguments like this but higher math has rendered his ideas obsolete

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:04]
math is about the relationships of abstract structures to each other

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:04]
this is all like imaginatory atomism

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:05]
yes, cantor who founded modern math studied spinoza

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:05]
who was an atomist

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:05]
set theory is abstracted atomism

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:05]
but the imagination is more goopy

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:06]
we like to think its all like legos

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:06]
1 + 1 = 2 in modern terms is S(S({}})) = S(}) = {}}

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:06]
i didn't explain the notation but do you see how it's just shifting symbols around like a computer program?

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:06]
math is like the normal brick legos, poetry is like the special pieces

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:07]
math is legos, poetry is clay

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:07]
rigid versus plastic, right

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:07]
plastic in the original sense of labile or moldable

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:08]
i.e. "plasticity"

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:08]
I mean numbers have to be these very rigid self contained structures. math is problematic if the number 37 can also be a dragon when the microwave is turned on, math becomes a mess. what's 16 + dragon?

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:08]
and no dragon is not an algebra variable

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:08]
its an actual dragon

cosmic prankster, [18.08.18 15:09]
poetry on the other hand welcomes this multiplicity of forms

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:11]
[In reply to wqe23]
Representation

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:12]
is emotion representation though?

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:12]
[In reply to wqe23]
Of?

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:12]
i feel like emotion belongs to a pre-cognitive layer

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:12]
it's directly a state

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:12]
it's not a representation of a state

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:12]
A state of?

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:12]
lol this sounds like wittgenstein

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:12]
"how do i know i feel pain"

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:13]
i haven't studied his argument in a while

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:13]
Pain is too a reference.

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:13]
intentionality?

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:13]
No idea

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:14]
But pain is always an indication of something

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:14]
[In reply to wqe23]
So probably both yes and no

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:14]
[In reply to cosmic prankster]
nope, higher math has a concept of plasticity

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:15]
it's called continuum mechanics, calculus applied to stretched materials

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:15]
engineers use it all the time

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:15]
it's also the basis of einstein's general theory of relativity

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:15]
remember the idea is gravity turns spacetime into a rubber sheet, metaphorically speaking

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:15]
[In reply to Zhenya Slabkovski]
that's what intentionality means

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:15]
a sign which points to something else

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:16]
actually let me look it up again, it's a very subtle definition

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:17]
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/intentionality/

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:17]
This reminds me of how i use isomorphism

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:18]
isomorphism is bidirectional

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:18]
intentionality is unidirectional

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:18]
a unidirectional morphism is called an injection or an epimorphism

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:21]
the key figure here i guess is alexus meinong, a student of franz brentano

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:21]
he translated intentional acts into formal logic

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:23]
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/meinong/

wqe23, [18.08.18 15:23]
" If you are happy that it is raining, you can grasp your happiness in inner perception, but not by means of a separate mental content. That your mental experiences present themselves to you means you refer to your instantaneous experiences without the intermediary of a further representation of them. You are able to reflect upon your momentary anger or upon your feeling of shame without needing a kind of mental symbol of your anger or your feeling of shame."

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:25]
This is direct experience vs symbolic representation.

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 15:29]
Math is symbolic to the core… And that is its direct representation.

wqe23, [18.08.18 16:52]
well yeah math is form and matter is content

wqe23, [18.08.18 16:52]
in terms of aristotle's hylomorphism

wqe23, [18.08.18 16:52]
form and matter are morphe and hyle respectively

wqe23, [18.08.18 16:53]
you can have representations of form because representations themselves are forms

wqe23, [18.08.18 16:53]
but matter exceeds representation

wqe23, [18.08.18 16:53]
it's in excess in relation to form

Zhenya Slabkovski, [18.08.18 16:56]
I don't think thats the case.

wqe23, [18.08.18 17:02]
do you think it's form all the way down?

wqe23, [18.08.18 17:02]
i could see the argument go either way

wqe23, [18.08.18 17:03]
a very "ontic" or theoretical ontology would have matter just be a scalar density attached to each point in 3-dimensional coordinates

wqe23, [18.08.18 17:03]
radical empiricists like nietzsche have a more abyssal ontology

wqe23, [18.08.18 17:04]
i think spinoza generally reduced matter to form and potentiality

wqe23, [18.08.18 17:04]
so form and motion

wqe23, [18.08.18 17:04]
building off the greek atomists

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